Angus Ross  

Welcome to Rewilding Love, this season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross  

This is episode number 24. And interview with Greg Ellis.

Greg Ellis  

The CDs are called rhythm tonics. And the tracks are dosages and the instruments or ingredients. And this is really meant to be a pharmacy of rhythm.

Angus Ross  

And what I started to realize is what the audience are responding to is just the pure honesty of it all.

Greg Ellis  

We don't look at sound in the same way we look at other things we ingest,

Rohini Ross  

We don't want to present a somehow that we have it all figured out and the we have the perfect relationship and that nobody does. And that's just not natural.

Greg Ellis  

Music therapists to me is an oxymoron. Music is therapy,

Angus Ross  

Creating music. There's just so honest and pure and organic.

Greg Ellis  

I think self-help is had its time. I think we need to get to self-discovery.

Angus Ross  

My mom was I think born in the 20s.

Greg Ellis  

Nature doesn't have this standardized mechanical time every species has to adhere to.

Rohini Ross  

I think what you're pointing to is how most people are living with a constant internal pressure and hum of anxiety and insecurity.

Greg Ellis  

This is podcast off the cliff.

Angus Ross  

You are listening to rewilding love with me Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross  

And me Rohini Ross

Angus Ross  

Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross  

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded

Angus Ross  

Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor

Rohini Ross  

And their work and how it has helped them in their relationships.

Angus Ross  

Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross  

This is an epic episode with the equally epic Greg Ellis.

Rohini Ross  

It is and we could have we could have quite happily probably spoken to him or we I mean apart from anything else he's such a good friend but I have to say he's probably one of the most interesting people that I know

Rohini Ross  

And wise

Angus Ross  

So wise so yeah, we could have carried on doing this to the cows come home.

Rohini Ross  

So we really hope you enjoyed this episode.

Greg Ellis  

And what we should give him you know, we should give I was gonna say you could give the devil his due. inappropriate. We should give him his due respect is what I want to say. Perhaps, I don't know if we're allowed to read off some of the some of the people that he's worked for the ones that I can I can think of Billy Idol because I was I was kind of, I was kind of a Billy Idol fan back in the day.

Rohini Ross  

I had no idea we had the same musical interest back in the 80s

Angus Ross  

White wedding. I love that track.

Rohini Ross  

Oh yeah, that's a good one.

Angus Ross  

And then who else you were Mickey Hart, my goodness, one of the one of the most craziest percussionists of all time.

Rohini Ross  

Do you know reactor,

Angus Ross  

Koto, Japanese percussion ensemble, ensemble, ensemble,

Rohini Ross  

Ensemble

Angus Ross  

Ensemble.

Rohini Ross  

And then Zakir Hussain, who's an Indian tabla virtuoso

Angus Ross  

Yeah, I mean, it's an extraordinary list, and there are many more. And then on the on the film score front,

Rohini Ross  

well, wait a second, I was gonna say that his music spans from rock and roll all the way to Indian classical music. That's quite the range. And he's played with artists in more than 30 countries.

Angus Ross  

Excuse me? Pipe my head off.

Angus Ross  

Can I now talk about the film scores? I think wolf 300. That was that was a classic for its genre. And then the main what can I say about the matrix movies revolution? And the Matrix Reloaded? What else? Have you done?

Rohini Ross  

 Iron Man,

Angus Ross  

Iron Man. I mean, we could go on and on and on all go. The list goes into infinity in terms of the work that he's done in that field.

Rohini Ross  

That's quite a big number and finish.

Angus Ross  

You know, I like I probably

Rohini Ross  

You do. But not only that is his interest in healing, which I think is really a huge crossover in terms of the music that he's using on our podcast.

Angus Ross  

And we get to reap the benefits of thisuber talented virtuoso master musician on our podcasts. How cool is that?

Rohini Ross  

I know we were really fortunate that he had the time to work on the podcast for us because normally he'd be performing

Angus Ross  

And under any normal circumstances, if it hadn't been for the pandemic, his dance card would have been full in no uncertain terms. So we really lucked out.

Rohini Ross  

Absolutely. And you get to luck out listening to this episode, because it's such a deep, rich exploration of some pretty philosophical points when you say,

Angus Ross  

I would say it was a veritable smorgasbord of Greg Ellis wisdom.

Rohini Ross  

How do you say smorgasboard mogas. Borg?

Rohini Ross  

I don't think it ends in a G.

Angus Ross  

Cause incident ci schmuck. What else it does, it ended I thought it D schmo was Paul smorgasboard. I think that's what the American derivation is the small business is taken from the German goodness knows, I don't know German. But it's a smorgasbord. smorgasbord.

Rohini Ross  

We'll have to look it up.

Angus Ross  

Look it up.

Rohini Ross  

Yes, it was a veritable array of delicious nuggets of information. And really, like I said, got me reflecting on the impact of natural sounds on the body and for healing, how we are also impacted by this construct of time and tend to live our lives in alignment with that rather than our natural rhythms. And we also had a really, somewhat paradoxical exploration of optimism.

Angus Ross  

Yeah, well, to be a whole lot less articulate. Would say, it blew my mind.

Rohini Ross  

Probably a better way of saying it,

Angus Ross  

And hopefully it'll blow yours. Enjoy the episode.

Rohini Ross  

It would be great for our listeners to hear a little bit more about your journey with music and the role because the role that music plays in the podcast is so huge, like, we really Angus and I felt that your contribution just up leveled everything that we were doing, and amplifies sort of the healing potential. That's happening. So it's like, who is this? Greg Ellis? Who's the man behind the music?

Greg Ellis  

Wow, it's um, it's amazing how perfect the fit was. And I've, I've had the rhythm tonics well explained for so the rhythm tonics, the music that you hear on the podcast, or from a set of seven CDs I recorded in 2005, called rhythm farm, like a rhythm pharmacy. And the CDs are called rhythm tonics. And the tracks are dosages, and the instruments are ingredients. And this is really meant to be a pharmacy of rhythm. Recording them in 2005. This was still, you know, a couple years before streaming was happening. So we had hard copies of CDs, CD booklets had maps of where the instruments come from, no synthetic sounds, no synthetic materials, meaning all the instruments are organic, made out of organic material. And I then blended all these instruments, ingredients into what I call the rhythm tonics. So when you approached me to do some music, we were originally thought initially that well, let's use the tonics. And what is interesting is, of course, what it brings out in, I think, the emotion of the show and allowing this kind of like breath in between certain sections, but the way your sessions are so organic, and allowed to be free in that sense, actually makes the tonics more revealing in that way. And so I think the listeners are feeling this and you're getting now another dose of sound that's as real in here for you and really wanting to be of service. I just don't think that's common in music anymore. Yeah, that could be guaranteed where you knew everything you were listening to, had to rerecord it by a musician doing that, when that's not known, and it could just be literally a button push. So I think what happens in the podcast with the tonics, it creates it so it doesn't become strenuous, over, you know, 60 or 90 minutes on some of them. It's just like, that's your little breath of air as it goes along. And I find them when I listened back to them when we're done editing, and I've put the music in. And your final check that it really feels tedious. It feels just enough. Yeah, so those are the sips of water in between who knows how many analogies to come up?

Angus Ross  

Well, I've got an analogy for you. Because I feel like this is analogous really for me on so many levels, with what was really important to me and what resonates with me most about this understanding, which is something like kept hearing when I was trying this hat on for size, if I even want to do this, this work in this field was to really speak from your grounding. And that was a term that was used to sort of really what it was suggesting was just really be your pure in on itself and come from there, tell your stories, share your metaphors just come from your heart and speak from there. And without information, when I started, I was constantly comparing myself to other people, oh, I've got to be like that guy. I've got to be like them, I've got to be slick. And I've got to be able to drop Rumi quotes left and center. So I was constantly comparing myself to others, in a sense is like, yeah, perhaps in those early days, I would show up and kind of follow the company line and maybe rehash a story that I'd heard or a teaching point that, you know, maybe someone else had shared. But it wasn't really until I decided, you know what, I'm just going to show up and be me and then see the validation of that, that I'm actually people are responding to that so much more than me following the company line. And then I just started to observe that in other people, like people who would teach seminars or public speakers, I will observe what was the most resonant for the audience. And it was always that person that was sharing from the heart and real time. And what I started to realize is what the audience are responding to is just the pure honesty of it all. That that is enough. And that's what people like. And I see that in your music, you're creating music that's just so honest, and pure and organic. And it has to be pointing in the same direction. Ultimately, I feel that people just resonate with that you don't want to hear something that synthetic or processed, which is really kind of how I probably showed up in the early days was probably pretty synthesize and process, it was a synthesis of other people's ideas. When I showed up and shared my ideas, that's something new and original, and it's honest, and people like that. So that would be the way that I see it kind of all kind of works together so beautifully, in terms of what you just shared.

Rohini Ross  

Could you say a little bit more about your philosophy around the tonics? I know you touched on it. But I think there's just so much richness there in terms of understanding more about how tonics can be a pharmacy.

Greg Ellis  

We don't, we don't look at sound in the same way we look at other things we ingest. So visual, and smell and taste, have all kinds of kind of rules and regulations about them of what's offensive, or what's pleasant. There's prestige of this level of flavor, as opposed to that level of flavor, a certain restaurant, serving a third of the amount of food you're charging three times more, because of the prestige of the chef, like all these things about the level of ingredients you get, and the level of talent with which one, what one does with those ingredients, you pay top dollar for music never had that music has his equalization, so Sex Pistols record or CD back in the day with the same prices Beethoven's Ninth. Now, to sum that value, could go either way. Someone may say, you know, the Sex Pistols are completely undervalued.

Greg Ellis  

But for the most part, you would think that Beethoven would cost more than the Sex Pistols. But everything was equalized. It was a $5 lp or $12 CD or, you know now 99 cent file that doesn't ever get paid anyway, but so it's even devalued did nothing where it's all free. Yeah, you would never have that kind of sense of any other form of art of just thinking, Oh, do you mind if I take this painting off your wall and go make a copy of it so I can hang in in my house, you would never devalue the original work like that. So I started thinking in this way of how sound and digital recording back in the early 2000s was not just affecting what I heard is the sound of the music and affecting what I call the nutrition of the frequencies. It was really shifting and taking away the role of that musician having to reach that point of understanding of being the deliver of of this and that responsibility and taking that seriously and very, very, very quickly. The value of the nutrition of music, in a way of real emotional content and the achievement it takes to become a musician within two or three years literally was completely scrapped away in the late 90s and then early 2000s. But what I also saw is that as the musician was be taken away, so was the musicians instruments, and the instruments were being replaced with synthetic replicants That couldn't embody the inherent resonant frequency of a musician playing an instrument. And these instruments were also part of what delivered that nutrition of the frequency. When digital sound libraries and loop stations came in, all you literally had to do was to hold down a key on your keyboard. And there's the sound and the rhythm being played at whatever tempo you want numerous different fields. This wasn't a synthesizer where a keyboard player still had to play it. This was something doing it for you. So I was initially angry because of the work it took away from you drum machines and things like this. drummers are literally being replaced by machines. The cost of a drum machine was the cost of a good drummer for one day in the studio. And nobody was carrying, the audience didn't care. And I don't blame the audiences. That was all the audience was given, they were conditioned. So I really wanted to see how much music I could really create with just my percussion instruments and using only rhythm, meaning no melody. And I challenged myself to record on only my organic instruments, meaning natural skin, bone, shell, Clay metal, no plastic skin, nothing loops are sampled or no metronomes or click tracks. And really just play so I put a mic up, I play an instrument for 1015 minutes, I wouldn't listen to what I just did, I'd go to another track play another instrument to that would layer three or four times when it could still be improvisational that I wasn't composing. And once I basically learned the track and started doing compositional choices, then I said it was done. I didn't want it to be a composition, I want it to be the sense of discovery. So all these things used to be you know, in the studios of the back in the day, you would get a vibe in the studio, and it'd be lighting candles and tapestries and all this stuff. It seems ridiculous now, because you can go in and fix it. There's no vibe you're catching, you're just catching data, you're catching information that you're going to manipulate digitally, somehow later, right. So I really just wanted to have something available for listeners to be able to access music in real time, instruments played in real time, and instruments that also had certain properties and aspects to them that are healing. So it became five and a half hours of seven CDs of rhythm, pure organic rhythm completely off the click. And that's I think what I'm most proud of is to offer one source of something that can go that long, without hearing a quick track. And this is going to affect you differently than other music. Always trying to remove myself as being any kind of guru or healer, a music therapist, to me is an oxymoron. It's music is therapy when done right? If the musician is honest in their music and honest with the sound they're generating, it will absolutely affect people directly. And personally on a cellular level. No other medication can do this immediate. It doesn't have to come on it doesn't have to take hold. What we've been steered into in our technology of our devices and everything now is we have no choice. This is what you're going to be fed and you're going to like it. And we do

Greg Ellis  

no blame to the audience and no judgment to the music, no judgement to young musicians who have to press buttons, my heart goes out. So the tonics really became more of an oasis actually connecting it back to the podcast. I feel like you reveal these components in the music, by the nature of your discussion also having that same intention. So it's fascinating to me to see how intention when reflected against another form with intention. Both those intentions are magnified in a way so it becomes periodic. It really does and so the podcast is really let me use them in a way that they were originally intended as being something I would dispense and I really were the breaks are I really choose each talk specifically, if it ends with the laugh or if it ends with something heartfelt then I know which tonic to go to. So they do become little dosages in that way and the way I've used them so it's been an amazing platform to explore them with and really, really enjoyable for me.

Rohini Ross  

I'm so glad we're doing this podcast episode as well because the people listening don't know what they're getting. And I think that to sort of spell it out also helps them to realize that they're not Just being impacted by how amazing Angus and I are. But they're being impacted in a way that they don't even realize because it's just embedded in the episode in terms of how you've added that composition to it.

Greg Ellis  

And we did take the the model of the NPR shows that have the music bumpers, as they call it in between I've actually had a lot of a music license for NPR and BBC Radio and things to be used as the music in between not the tonics because I don't really share those in that way. But other recordings that I released over the years will they'll use it, but we use that model and I when those are done well, when the vibe of the music really supports the vibe of the the guest or the or the show there's just what is that that works in there where you just have this little musical interlude for 30 seconds and it just like it just yeah it feels kind of professional to you. But it really what it did was allow you guys to have Sorry, I said guys, I gotta say this last episode Michael ended it with thanks you guys. And also with Judy and Christine that they had they called themselves that were too old broads we can say any phase I thought that way what would he have called out Angus if he said so the next to all broads we have covered up because they're referred to themselves like that. So I started thinking there's there is a middle ground here I think guys maybe has risen above its literal meaning as a vernacular, the way something being queer is feeling gay or something like no those words have risen above what their initial meanings are so contextually, it can have a little leeway. I only stopped because of the prior episode that I know so well that I remember every everything you guys talk about you guys. So I bring it up now, but I don't think I would have mentioned that. Had I not had you? Yeah, and here I am saying it. So but I'm aware of it now. Yeah, I think that's what's important. Yeah. You know, the pronouns and all that. It's just Just be aware of it. If it's affects them, too. Wouldn't you want to make them as comfortable as possible? Yeah. Somebody who wants to have this? Yeah, as their name or identity? What? How does that affect us? Yeah, why we get so hung up. So anyway, yeah, this is my good boy.

Angus Ross  

It's kind of funny to somehow within that distillation of that awareness is that you have those moments that feel really awkward. And I can think of an occasion with my mom, you know, my mom was, I think born in the 20s. So she had a wish, I guess, shows my age, my goodness,

Rohini Ross  

Are you 100?

Angus Ross  

I'll talk about that later. Anyway, moving swiftly on. So I remember, you know, this sort of the term gay sort of, you know, appeared on the scene to her and just for her, you know, meant something altogether different for her age and the environment that she grew up in. So she got introduced to this terminology, and there was this idea, you could either be straight or you could be gay. So my mom who was pretty much very much involved in the local church in the mother's union, I think she might even been ahead of the mother's Union for a while. So I think it was incumbent upon her when a new curate appeared on the scene, like the curate is like the second in command to the vicar, who's basically a priest and was doing the rounds visiting the local parish. And so my mom invited him in for tea, they sat down for tea and the first thing that she said to him as he sat down said, so are you straight? She said, under normal circumstances, I that would be a perfectly reasonable thing to ask of anyone because what she was what she was trying to ascertain was like, has he got himself straightened out? How straight that was her meaning Australia but I had introduced it to this whole new meaning of straight which made her literally go bright red and realize what she said but didn't make any kind of accommodation for that fact. And this guy this curate just looked really uncomfortable didn't know how to answer it and just

Rohini Ross  

Clearly he wasn't straight

Greg Ellis  

candlelit the church

Angus Ross  

be so direct and I just thought of that you know, just in terms of like in for me now moving forward. Maybe I'll have those awkward moments Well, why shouldn't be saying guys here so what do they think?

Rohini Ross  

I've had those awkward moments hearing myself.

Greg Ellis  

And I think it's just bringing it up, though. Makes I'm aware of it. Yeah, I'm sorry. It's not clicked in after you know. 50 plus years of saying you guys prefer referring to but it but would you know, you put it like that. Look, the group of guys are hanging out. It's like, Hey, you girls know

Angus Ross  

You have spoiled it for me now. Cuz I know now that in actual fact, what's happening is actually puts me in a situation where I'm kind of like, I'm not present in that moment, because I'm worrying about the fact that I've said, guys, so I was actually confronted, confronted with a situation with two women the other day, I said, Hi, you guys. And then you know, rather than actually engage socially and be present with a mullet, Oh, God, I shouldn't have said that. Now, what are they thinking? Now I need to really take it out of my vernacular. So I don't want to have those moments, right.

Greg Ellis  

That's what I'm noticing as well. And then you see how much you say, Oh, that is a filler that doesn't really describe what's real. So I've started to break down the whole like language.

Rohini Ross  

And one of the other areas that I know we've talked about is how you talk about music and time and how the metronome was introduced into it. And I'd love for you to share more about that philosophy that's come to you around that.

Greg Ellis  

When you record in the studio, you use what's called a click track. It's a digital metronome that on recording sessions, film sessions, everything's locked to a click track, it's called a click track. In the studio in the 80s, late 80s, early 90s. The click track started coming into play because you're playing with with synthesizers that were programmed and so you're playing to something playing already with a mechanical clock. So you had to adhere to that mechanical clock, so you just have a piece of the tempo of the track. But the other musicians didn't necessarily have to listen to the click track, they could listen to the drummer because the drummer was listening to the click track. So they were still being judged on their performance with each other, the vibe they would have with the drummer, because they're not hearing this incessant click track. Meanwhile, as the drummer, you're putting on headphones. And all you hear is this click track. And now the band starts playing in your instrument is loud as well. So you have to turn the click checkup really loud at the expense of the other instruments, because you're being now judged completely on your performance with the click track. What this did was take away the drummer's natural, rhythmic sensibility as a musician to decide not just the tempo of a track, but also there are spots where you may want to push it and pull it meaning speeding up and slowing down. For instance, if I'm recording a song, the click won't allow that when you reach the second chorus, you want it to push a little bit because the song is really paying off at that point. So I need to push it a little bit there. It creates energy and a good drummer knows how to do this, you pull it back on the verse, you push it on the chorus, this is feel it's grew, you know, it was never questioned. Until the click track comes in. You can visually now see the sound file as well. It's not magnetic tape. So you're just trusting your ears. You see the actual sound wave? There's the bass drum. There's the click track, it's off. Wow. Even if by just a few milliseconds, you could see that it was off and that overruled trusting what your ears heard, will close your eyes. Do you hear it? I don't care if I hear it, it's off. We started trusting our eyes more than our ears.

Angus Ross  

So it just takes all the intuition out of music.

Greg Ellis  

Yeah, exactly. And I honestly believe that removing a natural sense of rhythm, a drummer's natural sense of time in music is what led to us having to adhere to a click track in all aspects of our lives. every device, every phone we have, is on the exact same time, which means that's a click track of 60 beats a minute. And we are all moving to it right in step. And maybe when life feels like it's getting predictable, and we don't feel like we have choices, maybe you just need a dose of real time. Nature doesn't have this standardized mechanical time that every species has to adhere to. When you have a mayfly that lives for 24 hours. And a giant red with a condom for 4000 years though there's two very different time systems. And neither one is being judged as being out of time with the other. The metronome was the first device where musicians performance was judged against a machine, you were literally not a good musician, if you can't play to the metronome. And that thinking paved the way for the click track and modern music to control the things we had does. But this really isn't about the way music sounds or feels today. This is music is the vehicle I use to to explore these ideas. But what I'm really concerned about is the loss of our natural sense of time. When you go into nature, that's what you don't have you don't see a tree with a metronome or a clock, yes to it, yeah, of where it needs to be in its evolution. So that's the long way around, I think probably what you were,

Rohini Ross  

No, I love that.

Angus Ross  

It's kind of like musics gone from farm to table to sort of being this very sort of overly processed food, all the taste has been taken completely.

Greg Ellis  

And if you just start with compression compression, then is something that like, compression would be taking my 192 bit files and compressing them down to 16 bits. But in recording compression is something you do to squash the signal, which I don't do with the two of you, I caught myself because the some of the dynamics are really drastic, meaning that sometimes it's very loud, and sometimes very soft. So a straight compression, which will bring all the lower levels up and squash the higher level. So everything becomes one steady level, it doesn't work with some of your sessions because of the dynamic range. So I have to go in individually of each little spike, and I lower it and bring the low ones up. So I do it organically. And that just takes a little more time. But even on that level, you're hearing the full range of your emotions, and your guests emotions. So that's like a soil additive, I'm not using that goes to the very beginning of it. Yeah, just that alone is rare these days. Yeah, if not, it just doesn't exist and have no compression. So we compress our emotions, I think in a very similar way is our sound is so compress. These things can be analogy, but they're also literal. A compressed sound hits the body differently than a wide open sound. And a compressed emotion doesn't exhibit the full dynamic range of what we're actually feeling. And with so much of our daily lives and everything we experience being processed and compressed in this way, it removes the need for the commitment of really owning what we feel in any moment. And that we don't have to commit to any change that we want to achieve. So technology in that way has really enabled us to resist the heavy lifting, to not do the grunt work in the process of creating the art of creating the sound. For instance, in Photoshop, when you can just use an app to change any filter or any exposure you want, unlike working in a darkroom, when you actually have to commit to your changes and not be able to pull back a photo that's totally washed out. But with an app, it's just don't save the changes and right back to where you started. There's no challenge or commitment, there is a sense of danger. So of course, you're not going to discover something about yourself.

Angus Ross  

Yeah. The world that we live in so much about creating a standardized set of rules that can really create a society that is efficient and might allow, you know, keeping the machinery going keeping consumptions and so much I think of what we're sharing online, I now feel like this is so analogous, even more so than I ever imagined, just listening to you talk about how we kind of get lost in our critical mind and everything about society is to is to is to celebrate the critical mind at the expense of intuition. Right. And so there is this sort of there is this rulebook that we all have to follow inside our head. It is the imaginary checklist that we want to tick all the boxes and it's kind of like, it's like living to the clip track, right? And it's in, it's just like, yeah, let's break free from that. So I mean, I love the marriage that we've kind of created. It is so perfect for everything that you've just said, that’s so exciting.

Greg Ellis  

One, I'd like it to be a model for new cross pollination of these platforms. So you're offering a podcast on rewilding love and relationships and the whole concept of rewilding that why not have the music be something that's also exhibiting that idea of rewilding. And that way, you get a fuller sense of the experience, I think, almost on a subliminal level, it doesn't have to be something that's marketed or advertised. But you know, it's in there. And we've received many comments from listeners of the show that feel this and they can hear that and feel something different and appreciate it. So it definitely gets through.

Rohini Ross  

I love the crossover, though, in terms of what you're talking about. Time doesn't exist in that way in nature. And the way that when you were playing without the click track, there was that room for your intuition and the feel, and in terms of our work with rewilding and asking people to listen to their inner wisdom and get a feel for it because it comes with a feel like we know when we're listening to that inner wisdom, we know when we're not, and that that's not emphasized usually. And that your work and what you're doing and your music is pointing to that in a different way than we're pointing to that. But we're, we're pointing to the same thing. We're pointing people to that place within themselves where it's timeless, where they're connecting with that, where they have an experience of that, where they get out of the conditioning, and they get into the realness that doesn't have a quick track to it. I mean, it's so powerful.

Greg Ellis  

It is an interesting point because you're rewilding a relationship. You're rewilding, an ecosystem from where your metaphor comes from. But what you're doing by rewilding anything is allowing it to have its own time. If you put that wolf back in the woods, and now all the things that preyed upon it and it preyed upon and all the flowers, it stomped, and over time balances out. And we have now the proper ecosystems and we wild in anything, is basically allowing its own time to process and evolve and grow and inhabit it. I just think that a lot of the New Age movement has kind of CO opted these ideas in ways that are compressed in the same way that we were talking about earlier in terms of getting rid of all the dynamic nuances of the ideas that are being presented. So I love the term rewilding, because it's not. It's not based on anything of like belief, or spirit energy, or these other things that are really hard to define, I think, much easier to know than they are to define, if you know what you have, and you don't really need to talk about it. So if you're talking about and I'm gonna question it. Because I don't think it's anything that needs to be talked about. That we have to identify through a belief system. So rewilding, anything is just allowing your own natural process to take over. And that's really giving it its own time. So don't keep looking at the clock. Oh, it's been two weeks, I expected to be further along. What if you're a treat and not a mayfly.

Rohini Ross  

And also, in that idea of time, what we see happen in an intensive, it's like time disappears in the way that we set up that work. What happens in let's say, it's a four day increment of time, is, it far exceeds what you would expect to happen within that time, because we get into that timeless space, we all sort of drop out of time. And it's not like when I was in a therapy office, and I'm, I hated the 15 minute hour. And I was like, I hated it. And it's like, Okay, I'm gonna and then of course, in order to make it work economically, you're supposed to book back the back to back. So if you didn't do a 50 minute hour, you're in trouble. And, and so being able to work with people in an intensive format, where you don't, there's nobody else coming in, you get to spend as long as you want to spend with them. There isn't that click track ticking, that has, you know, permeates all aspects of life, where you just get to have that organic process of peeling unfold. So beautiful. And even now, when I'm doing follow up sessions, or my other sessions with clients, I just don't put back to back because I don't want to know, when I'm going to end a session. No, even if it's meant to be a 90 minute session, if we're done at 30 minutes, we're done at 30 minutes. If we're, you know, booked for 60 minutes, but you're still in the middle of it. I haven't booked someone, you know, typically, I might sometimes, but usually I don't put back to back because I don't like working to the clock in that way.

Greg Ellis  

It's I mean, especially with your kind of work, where it's, it's all about this kind of blossoming and revealing. And then that kind of process that has a lot of elements of protocol that has to be in place for that to even happen. As you're saying that I was thinking of all these reality shows of competitions are all based on the clock, how many times this brilliant artist, or brilliant Baker was completely foiled because of time. So if you're not looking for the best British Baker, you're looking for the quickest. You're looking for the one who's basically going to bring it in on time, because the one that needs another 10 minutes where you would have had the best Hot Cross Buns you've ever had. So think of our forms of entertainment in that way of up against the clock. We're conditioned to expect it now. And maybe it would almost feel weird to a patient to not have that cut off point or clients want to have that cut off point, when you're so conditioned for the clock to control the experience, and then it's removed. It can be very unsettling. And I think we need to discover or rediscover that sense of ourselves that is comfortable with that. I think there's a lot we need to rediscover about ourselves. I think we've been consumed with the idea of self-help, but I think self-help. It's had its time. I think we need to get to self-discovery. I don't think we need help. Yeah, we need to know who we are. And we need to realize why the hell is this still happen? How did last four years happen in a way that in that amount of time this device and this is going on, we don't need help. To deal with that. We need to discover something about ourselves that may be hard to see. But we've got to face it. And I've always joked that if, if there was any self-help book that ever worked, it would be the last self-help book written by. But I mean, of course, they can be beneficial. And of course, self help is needed. In some cases, if I'm on a broken leg, I can't help myself limp. I need somebody to do that. For me. If I have a tourniquet that needs a pressure on and I'm passing ox, I've lost so much blood, I can't help myself there. So I feel that self-help and a lot of ways actually can reinforce the idea that you need help when what you really need to do is discover something about yourself. And in terms of humanity, we need to discover why we keep hitting these walls. And maybe this last year has finally revealed that in a way that we can't ignore. I'm finding it out right now. I've just really feeling like why are we here? You know, not existentially? Why this planet in the solar system? Literally, why are we still here? We clearly have done such harm and such terrible pull, we also must be doing something that is of a deeper purpose. And we can even imagine or recognize right now. The human species is like Keith Richards like, how is it still going. And somehow, if he's there, you know, still doing it, it's still as cool as ever, it's like, really. And I just think we need to discover that that resilience, and also focus on the thing that we have been doing right, and what has thrived. Regardless of the obstacles we tried to create. I think we're also needing a desperate dose of of pure truth. Undeniable truth. Now that that's the next victim of this technology, or I think the idea of time being the first. The second is going to be our sense of truth, and what's real. And that's been taking a devastating hit the last years, who would have thought that really like I can show you this or redo this? And you can say, No, that's just not true, when there's no question that it is, right. And so when I say why are we here? Like, you mean, how did we get here with by being so deceptive Alliance not hiding the tree pretending to be a Jaguar to leap on something, there are tools that animals use as maybe to create an imposter syndrome. But it's gonna be a tool, it's like the you know, the circles on the back of a moth that make it look like that to its face, I don't consider that trying to be something different. And that's, that's a tool of itself, it's using, that creates that illusion. So maybe we need to create an illusion that we're something more than we are. And then we start believing that illusion of ourselves that maybe we are more than we are maybe we're not enough of who we are.

Rohini Ross  

 Yeah,

Greg Ellis  

Something gonna shift here. Let's do this. Let me find the information that resonates with me. And let me make sense of it. And let me do something with it in a way that's not to prove it to you. That to me is going to be exciting to see when we start becoming aware on that level of what's really causing our interactions to feel in genuine. Are these two things? I think it's the fabrication of truth and the fabrication of time. That could never be brought into question, right? So clock printing press, metronome, click track, digital technologies, my market order, really is the two things that keep us out of fear. The hard work that most of us go through of what it takes to really achieve a relationship that has that sense of time and truth embedded in it. That there's no pressure of either. Yeah, we're not running out of time here. Our time is not threatened when I'm not going anywhere. And this is who I am. Yeah. So if you think of time and truth in that way, those two things threatened. No wonder we're having such a difficult time really understanding where we all fit in right now.

Rohini Ross  

Yeah. And I really appreciate your confidence in the resilience that we can discover ourselves that, that we're capable and that we just need to be looking in that direction because even though Angus and I work with others, and our service to Others were really only pointing them to look within themselves. And it's amazing to think that that's our job, because that's what we're doing. But it's not the norm for people to be told that

Greg Ellis  

It’s not. And I think, again, it gets lumped in with an idea of, you know, belief or optimism or faith or something like that I'm not, I'm not, this is an optimism of things working out for me in the last 30 years of my career. This is optimism of 13 billion years of our evolution. That's what fascinates me more. It's not anything I have achieved or not achieved. Yeah. But as a species, we're still running this thing as we're destroying it, which means there's something really amazing there that may be misdirected, or maybe exactly what's supposed to be happening. Maybe that's just revealing that part of us that has to be discovered, and now we're going to be able to figure, you wouldn't figure out a cure for COVID, or cure for polio until there was an outbreak. This is the outbreak of that part of us that has to be discovered. And now we're going to know how to deal with it. Because everything else until now has just been a little pimple of this cyst underneath. That's clearly there. Yeah, so trusting our own resilience of survival, and thrive as a species. We have to acknowledge what we're bad at too. And that's the age I think we're in I think we've got to face what we're bad at. And that's really, politically, environmentally, emotionally, we don't show the tools of survival the way most every other parent in nature does. We give our sense of what tools we were given and not given and going to devise this concoction to give to our kids, as this is what it needs to be. And I'm thinking, well, maybe that's because we don't have the time to do it. Maybe because we do have to deliver this kid at three years old to preschool and five years old to kindergarten, and on and on, it goes for the next 12 years and then college and when does this kid have any chance to show you who they really are? Without the clock, I think we have a much better group of people and care of each other.

Rohini Ross  

Yeah. Without that pressure, that whether it's something external or whether it's just perceived within ourselves. I think what you're pointing to is how most people are living with a constant internal pressure and harm of anxiety and insecurity. And then we make strange choices based on that. And why would you do that? Yeah. But it makes sense when we're caught up in the noise of that.

Angus Ross  

That's interesting. Yeah, it's a, it's a fascinating topic, I think. But one of the things that was coming up for me, as you were sharing, I actually had a conversation with a client earlier today, who was referencing a good friend of theirs, who had gone through a tremendous around amount of adversity, like one thing after the other horrific things that happened. And they had come out the other side and had all this wisdom at their disposal. So as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, you know that that example, you used black were kind of like Keith Richards, in our current state of evolution. How are we still here. But in a sense, it's like, it's almost like the human race, kind of like come up against what feels like a precipice, like COVID, you could say, was a precipice, we come against code up against COVID, who knows what will come out of it. But there is this incredible resilience, who knows what will come out of global warming, where that eventually takes us, it's almost like, you know, when I was a student, I'll always be leaving it until the last minute before I would actually study for the exam, it feels like we can't do that in terms of where the clock is ticking. We leave everything until the last minute to address the problem. But nevertheless, when we do address the problem, we're pretty amazing at doing exactly that. I think about this client earlier today talking about their friend, I think about a client that I worked with, a few years back when I was asked to work with his son, and the son was dealing with a really, really difficult medical condition of which the prognosis was bad. And at one point, I think he was 21. When I talked to him at 12, he was pretty much staring death straight in the face. And for me, and what he had learned and what he shared about what he had learned, he basically this session was for me, not for him, I was being coached by him by a 21 year old, he had learned the real value in being present, not living by the clock by really like to survive and have this life that really the prognosis of which didn't really have any longevity attached to it. He knew that he had to live in the present. It's like something that's baked into all spiritual philosophy. It's there, you know, this the power of the present and, you know, living the life that way. He had really harness that and figured it out. And I think that that happened through having to go through this tremendous amount of bursty no like areas, Dave, staring his mortality in the face, he kind of figured that out on his own. And I thought that was extraordinary. But we do have this tremendous capacity to do exactly that. And I do like to look at the intelligence behind life, the GPS system of which is the intuition is like, we have the resources at our disposal. And yeah, whatever it is our ego, our critical mind is decided now I'm going to take the wheel here, and it's distilled itself into some sort of societal machinery, which produces a click track or, or whatever. But that takes us away from that resource that is always there to bail us out whatever friggin disaster we face, it's there to bail us out. And that's our resilience. And we can we can figure it out ultimately.

Greg Ellis  

So that becomes our new Ford sense of optimism is like, you know, it's so bad now that it's in any moment, the best of us will come out. Really, there is a documentary on Mr. Rogers that came out want to be my neighbor? I think it was right. And one of the, remember the clips on NPR, they're interviewing the filmmaker, and the next adventure, he saw the movie, but the question was asked of him, how do you tell kids about natural disasters about something that's out of their control and tornadoes or, yeah, quakes and things when they're seeing it on the news? And he would say, show them that the people that are that are helping show them the heroes. And he said, basically, you just let them know that with every disaster, or tragedy comes out the best in people. Maybe that's it, maybe there is this innate, trust that we have that you know what, it's going to go to hell anyway. And until it does, we won't see the best of us. I think we have definitely reached that point where this is starting. And that's ultimately where I think my optimism comes from. That's really fascinating angles of seeing it like that. Yeah. The entertainment of zombies and Apocalypse, and everlasting battles is all about always disaster at the helm. And what if that is actually the part of us that is fully aware, the best will arrive? Yeah. Every artist I know who works on professional jobs and has to deliver that workload by a deadline. Does their best work in the last hours of the deadline?

Angus Ross  

Yeah,

Greg Ellis  

The time expands to fill the job provided? Yeah, we always would say, yeah, so if you have two hours, but also has granted the three, your best work will be in that third hour, what if it stayed at two hours, your best work would have been in the second hour.

Angus Ross  

Interesting isn't that, because in a sense, is like in that final hour, you get to a point where you just do not have the luxury of rumination of worrying about how badly or well it's going, you just have to show up and just perform.

Greg Ellis  

And like you said, we can't ruminate on the past, we have to accept the truth of the moment that we're in. So in relationships, we can get attached to our sense of what we feel is true, but it's not actually the truth. So the tools I'm looking for, and not the ones to create an outcome or resolution, like we said earlier, the tools I'm looking for the ones that get me through that natural disaster where I can find the best of myself. Yeah. And let myself step away from it. If that's what it needs. Yes, what we've been covering, every episode is reaching that point, the sweet spot, like you say, and what these principles do give is a format for that, just like the technique of certain patterns that I would play on a drum set. These are all rudiments that I put together to create one cohesive phrase, like an alphabet. And that's what I think these principles deliver is, it gives you building blocks, which is simplified. I think it is more of an alphabet. But it just has three letters. Basically. I think that these three things that I'm addressing here of time, truth, and experience has been three things that can seem complex and confusing at times when you look at them all together, but you find a way to break it down to the lowest common denominator. This is something I do in rhythm with rhythms all the time, and certainly rhythms in other cultures that use what are called odd time signatures, when you're playing in an odd time signature, and not time signature means it's an odd number of beats in a measure. So instead of a beat regular beeping 12341234 an odd time would be 12345671234567123. So that sounds strange compared to a basic four, four rhythm, and certainly to the ears in the West and other cultures. There's numerous rhythms and odd time, and fives and sevens, and nines. So instead of counting 1234567, I break all these rhythms down to threes and twos. A seven is just two twos and a 312121231212123121212. Now it's a grew up but so now the odd time signature becomes a groove and it becomes something that feels natural, but when you're counting 123456712 3456 so you break it down. So a 10 eight rhythm would be two threes and two twos, 1-231-231-2126 and four is 10. So it's all math. So there is everything breaks down to threes and twos. So I use this same approach, if I'm dealing with something complex or confusing, that doesn't seem like it's right, or feels unnatural to me, I just tend to find a way to come down, like, Where's the three and two here? How where's the accent on this. And what that does is allow me to find the way that it feels right? Not the way to prove that I'm counting that right. So you seek out what's real, you seek out the way to feel something that makes it feel natural. You don't seek out the proof of these things, you don't seek out the proof of what resonates with you, and what is substantial about it, what's real about it.

Rohini Ross  

And it's not about proving it, it's about the lived experience of experience.

Greg Ellis  

It's not this thing we achieve it's in us. There's an area of research called semantics. And semantics is the study of sound and frequency made visible. They'll use a metal plate and pour some sand on it underneath the metal plate as a speaker that will play a frequency or a tone. And when it hits a pitch, the sand will immediately disperse itself into a geometric pattern like a mendala. So the base frequencies have a much simpler shape than the high frequencies. The higher the frequency, the higher the pitch, the more complex the shapes get. And what you are seeing is the shape of that frequency. And when you see that you can start to understand harmonic structure and music, why some notes together sound good and create a chord but others can be dissonant and create a rub that makes us feel unsettled. So let's say we're in an argument with our partner, the misunderstanding can escalate and continue merely because the tones of our voices are at dissonant frequencies. So no matter what you say, or what I say, it never feels right. Because we're not in a complementary frequency. That's why finding a common practice or system or method of dealing with things in a relationship works, because you're adhering to a complementary frequency of understanding because that understanding now has a frequency, you see. So it's really a beautiful way of seeing it and it breaks it down in a way that's unifying. It's it doesn't. It doesn't demand anything except it's awareness and start seeing how it plays out in your life. And that's when you can tell me what it is.

Angus Ross  

I guess that's part of what we're doing with rewilding, as we're trying to create a resonance and really, is really looking back towards that pure sound.

Greg Ellis  

Yeah, you're or you're looking for the frequency of that feeling? Yes. And a sense of what brought it together? What's that complimentary frequency that allowed this experience to manifest to begin with, I can be playing my piano fine. But if it gets out of tune, I'm going to need to tune it. And I may need some professional help for that. And your piano tuner to come tune it. But you have to tune your instrument. And piano because it's more complex in the guitar, you need a specialist to come tune it. And this guy doesn't use a machine. He's tuning it with his ear piano tuners are interesting lot there. He's like remembering six pitches below of where that tuning is and connecting it to his harmonic remembrance of that frequency. They're fascinating characters, physicists almost where they're relying upon the natural system of harmonic frequency, and how that resonates in their bodies over looking at a device, it's telling them whether or not it's in tune almost.

Angus Ross  

That's amazing. Well, I think what we do in relationship without even really even being conscious that we have these incredible systems in our body, in our biology, that are picking up all kinds of tone.

Greg Ellis  

Oh, no, show me anything digital. Show me any version of iPhone that's more brilliant than we are.

Angus Ross  

Yeah,

Greg Ellis  

I don't see it. I appreciate it. I can even give you some of the arguments of the good that it's done. But what this is about is how unbelievably incredible we are, as a living species. Just what we can do. I have not found any digital replicant of experience to come even close. It's 16 bits compared to 192,000.

Angus Ross  

And that's why I feel so optimistic because it's like you look at the biology, the sophistication of which is just remarkable. It's just set up. It's set up to have the most optimal human experience. It's set up for success every step of the way. And we will always find I feel that, you know, we'll find a way through just by virtue of the fact that look at the technology, nothing can hold a candle to biological technology,

Greg Ellis  

Right.Yeah, exactly. And I think at what point do you give up? Or At what point do you not want to see an outcome of life that exhibits not just how amazing you are, but how amazing we all are, there's a lot of those points. And it becomes so difficult for us to accept that we do have this dark side that we do have this darkness we inhabit. But it is absolutely necessary and beneficial in terms of our growth. So if we get stuck in judging the darkness we're capable of, then we may not want to see that outcome. And we can become so consumed by it that we do want to just end it all right then in there. But if we don't start looking at the darkness we inhabit, as being legitimate and valid and will never not be part of us, we will continue the need to exhibit it in ways that are very extreme, we will never get it understood and allow it to do its work, which is to balance out the other aspect of ourselves. And if we keep perceiving this idea that there is a sense of perfection we can achieve, it will never happen.

Rohini Ross  

Yeah, and it's not about perfection, like you're saying that doesn't exist, then, you know, you've heard Angus, and I all of the bits that we throw into the podcast, but it's like we don't want to present is somehow that we have it all figured out and we have the perfect relationship and that nobody does. And that's just not natural. But when we come back to that natural state, there's an A liveliness, there, there's a richness there, there's a depth there. And that's, I think, why we want to keep going, it's not about always feeling good, or looking good or being right. But there's something inside of us that enjoys the experience of being. And it doesn't really matter what that experience is because of that alive ness. And sometimes it's going to look crappy. Sometimes it's gonna feel terrible. But it's not about being comfortable. It's not about getting to that place of perfection, where all of a sudden how we're just comfortable and we're not suffering, it's about where does that alumnus want to take us. And I think what you're talking about Greg is that it's taking us into very uncomfortable territory, as a species on this planet at this point in time, as we kind of look at disaster in the face in so many different ways. But that the lightness wants to find a way through that. And if we take it straight on, there's that brilliance that's inside of us, even though it's not perfect. On one level, we're looking at it that way. There's that creativity that we all have within us that is going to look to see what's possible here. And sometimes it takes us to be up close and personal with it. Before we even do anything like you're saying with your Angus with the procrastination. It's like, you know, we all wait till the 11th hour before we decide to do something, or right now, I think, you know, it's getting close to a lot of people's doors and closer to everybody's door at some point.

Greg Ellis  

I think in some ways, we're being very hard on ourselves, and then otherwise, we're not hard enough. And what we're hard on ourselves with or that seems to be the things we can't do anything about. We're not hard on ourselves, the things we actually can take action on right now. So we're not that far off. It's not like we're a distance away from this. Yeah, right. The brain has point four milliseconds there abouts of how long it takes to translate everything, we get the black and white image through our eyes, it's actually upside down. So the brain has to turn it right side up. I put color and put dimension in depth perception all these things that takes about pretty remarkable and point four milliseconds. What I found in work I've done with trance, which completely attacks ideas of time, with through rhythm, and it's not this far off distant place they get to it's removing that point four milliseconds. So it's the pure present. Yeah, it's literally the blink of an eye and we're in a completely different reality. And that's all plant medicine drugs do hallucinogenics you see a different reality for a good five or six hours until it leaves your system. Physics defines time as the measurement of energy in motion. It says nothing about o'clock. So whatever generates the motion for that energy is the timekeeper. And that's how I feel rhythm is a timekeeper. What trance does is create that rhythm is like a wave like you ride this frequency and you arrive in the pure present that's all transit would be in the present. Everything I'm feeling I'm feeling right now. We feel there's this distance we have to cover to attain a lot of these sensations. I think Zen Buddhism is the only religion if you want to call it philosophy practice that allows for immediate enlightenment. It's called Satori. And that's when you got it by one statement by one act by one understanding. You're there. If we all went off the click What if we all turn it off? Yeah. Oh my god.

Rohini Ross  

I was just thinking how this has been timeless, like this is just flowed. And we've just been in one space of time.

Greg Ellis  

Maybe it's a double episode. Because we time out the windows.

Rohini Ross  

But I love throwing Time out the window.

Greg Ellis  

Who set this time?

Rohini Ross  

Yeah, exactly.

Greg Ellis  

Are we are questioning in our discussion? Yes. This we're questioning whether or not it's too long.

Rohini Ross  

Yeah, exactly. There's no such thing. It's our podcast.

Rohini Ross  

No, I just feel like it's you know, I always thought it was an alignment, but just listening to you now are just like, Oh, my God, this is just this is just go so much deeper.

Greg Ellis  

 It does. Yeah. And I have not I did more than scratch the surface. We got into some, some deep stuff with it. But I always like to pull it back to show how attainable the understanding is. Because it's not a practice based understandings and observational base runners. You have to practice observing it, not doing.

Rohini Ross  

That's great. I love that.

Greg Ellis  

And that's where I think we don't most of our practices is some form of discipline of doing Yeah, and action. And, and what really resonates with me is the Taoist perspective of non-action. Awareness, this idea of non-action, I think, in the West means not doing anything, but it's not that it's not having the action prove your sense of understanding or purpose in the situation. That idea of not having the action be the judge and jury of how we feel about ourselves and how we see our lives. It's time to release ourselves from the bondage of time, if we do feel that our soul is eternal. If we do have a spiritual practice that believes in that, that adheres to that, then that's the only timeframe we should be thinking of is eternity. So I think we've just given that kind of format here of like,

Rohini Ross  

Before,

Greg Ellis  

This is podcast off the click turn

Rohini Ross  

Off to the snake and get full permission,

Greg Ellis  

The whole podcast.

Rohini Ross  

Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review their

Angus Ross  

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross  

If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org

Angus Ross  

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.